GS training & TGU's, Bent presses

[Tom M-W]

Hi,

I was wondering about your views about the value of TGU's & Bent presses, in regard to GS training (and in general.) I know the TGU is a big favorite with many, especially since it's regarded as 1 of Pavels 2 program minimum exercises, with the swing. Personally I feel like I get more out of a bent press (the original prog. min. was the snatch and bent press? I think. Which was the back bone of my early KB work) Although both the TGU and Bent P. feel as if they are useful in regard to general strength and balanced functioning, but to what degree?

Yeah, I know Sandow and Saxon loved the Bent press and DD forum guy Adam Glass eats TGU's for breakfast, but how essential are they for GS and GPP. By the way I love Adam Glass' stuff - probably the most amusing dude out there - and freaken strong- I not sure he's going to feel so good post 40 though? Happy if he proves me wrong!

It also has to be noted that Paul T's GS manual doesn't mention either exercise, but rather the bread and butter: snatch, jerk (both cycles,) GS press & squat (with a host of valuable additional exercises.) A GS program minimum would be more like the Clean & Jerk (and squats-probably) - I'm guessing????? (Paul help!) Or the 4 exercises above- snatch, jerk x 2, press, squat.

I guess I'm asking: how valuable are the TGU / Bent press? Should they be part of any training program? Do you get more 'bang for your buck' with the GS exercises?

Any other reflections welcome.

Regards Tom

ps Paul, I'll join the GS association in due course.

[Paul in Hobart]

Tom - good questions - GS is about application of explosive power , and as such preferentially trains those neural pathways. Your "GS program minimum" is correct , though gireviks at different levels may require different emphasis on certain drills.

The TGU & BP are grind strength exercises that require a certain balance element - as such they are to some extent "circus tricks" . I am not aware of any GS athletes practising these - the emphasis really is on explosive movements.

TGU & BP will certainly develop core strength and the much vaunted shoulder stability, but there are many ways to achieve this. Double KB presses , OAJ , OH & other squats, get up situps etc. As far as shoulder drills go , You can achieve plenty of time under tension by practising long sets and performing high reps.

I used to perform BPs for fun ; once I got to the 32-40kg bells I couldn't really see any benefit over what I was doing with GS specific drills.

I see no reason to dissuade anyone from performing the TGU & BP as long as they are aware of the risks and utilise a weight that suits their general ability . Heavy bells have the potential to destroy a sporting career because of the funky angles and torque involved if balance goes awry. Once people get into a competitive mindset the risks escalate.

Rotator cuff and spinal injuries affect all aspects of living and it is hard to regain confident movement patterns in the rehab period.
Thus in summary , for GS purposes the emphasis is on safety and longevity. If you are an amateur training for health purposes , this makes sense.

If you want a bit of low grade risk in the GS setting , juggling could be for you. It is explosive . works grip and core, promotes linked movements and best of all is fun! Again , you choose a bell that feels easy to work with. The benefits are directly transferable to GS.

[kbellguy]

Hi Tom
I have recently ( the past 4 months) been working up to the heavy TGU, Bent press, and one arm press. Using the Pavels methology, basically as a change of pace that I use for my cyclic training throughout the year, and to give myself an insight into its usefulness. In all those lifts I have worked up to the 48 with good form. What I found interesting was that my GS suffered GREATLY, yes strength and structural stability have dramatically improved in the area of over head strength in lock-out but the GS grove suffered. I did this for a personal experiment, no real goals in mind. My personal conclusion is basically its fun to do.....side show stuff......but has its limits on overall training effect, Im talking about GS. I think Pavels training has a minor place in GS, but its basically a misconstrued form of what kettlebell lifting is all about. It caters well for the american psyche....do or die.......spec ops......animal strength etc. I have found that GS has given me more power, endurance, body awareness than any other form of kb lifting. Pavels training does not train you to be relaxed, last long etc. The snatch test is fun to do as you get high numbers, but try doing a GS session with one hand change with the 24! very different indeed. So using these lifts on their own have thier place, but the only sports specific application I have found useful has been shoulder flexibility/strength and structurall stability. I really believe that GS is a complete system that can be practiced well into old age.........look at Paul!!!! LOL. Anywqy thats my soap box.

Cheers

Mat

[albi]

Apples and Oranges! its not about 1 vs other, or this is better than that! Training cleans and Jerks are great for GS performance...what a fkin surprise!!!!

GPP is all about training a wide variety of modalities - TGU's are useful especially for martial / wrestling sports...and they are fun, I dont think they help GS performance, but personally I believe variety is the spice of life and I get a bit bored of the constant jerks, snatches and cleans, which is why from time I'll mix up the exercises, use a sandbag, tires, stones, sledgehammer...

[Paul in Hobart]

Hey albi I fully agree - not many GS guys just do the comp lifts all year (unless you follow the fedorenko method it seems). But 4-6 weeks out from a comp the emphasis switches towards SPP, that is obvious. Part of the question was "I was wondering about your views about the value of TGU's & Bent presses, in regard to GS training" to which I would concur with Mat's comment that they will affect the lifting groove for GS lifts. If you are wanting to compete , then practising what you will be doing on comp day will give you best bang for buck.

I think the apples and oranges thing comes from generalising the term "GS" - I try to emphasize GS methodology , somewhat different to competitive lifting per se. Once people know the differences bw this style and Hardstyle(tm) being citizens of a free country they can of course choose what best floats their galleon!

Apples and oranges are best combined with grapefruit , pineapple and cherries .

[Tom M-W]

Thanks for the replies. Very interesting!

Just to clarify, I was asking about TGU/BP's in particular to GS training, but I am also interested in peoples general feeling about them. Also I wrote about program minimum's because I don't have much training time to play with. So I'm very much looking at core exercises / training practices that are both effective and efficient. My questions could have been: I have 3 x 30 mins to train with at the moment. What exercises do you recommend? Would you stick to the GS basics Snatch, C&J, Press, Squat or do TGU & BP's have a place?

I had no intention to bag TGU's or BP's, they have been a part of my training since I got KB's 7 odd years ago, I particularly enjoy BP's and found TGU's good in cardio. For a while I used TGUs with a 32kg as a main part of my core work, but where disappointed with them when I did a plank test, and really struggled to get around 3 mins! I mean really struggled! Not a great result for 3-5 workouts per week. Since then I have done less TGU and more planks, ab wheels, hanging leg raises and ring work with better results. Sure, it was probably unrealistic to think that the TGU would look after my core - completely! But....if you read about the results people get with them you'd expect better!

Also part of my enquiry stems from rehabing my shoulder at the moment. So I'm reviewing my program, etc. I wanted to get a feel for how people are using TGU / BP's- simple. For example, my shoulder isn't quite ready for strict presses, so I've been doing light sets of Snatch / rack / Bps, OH squats, a few jerks and some knee push ups (i know- from little things big things grow!), which seems to be a good compromise at the moment.

I'm also very interested in staying fit as I age (perhaps there's an age divide on this forum?), and careful GS training appears to offer that. I'm also aware that by training alone without a coach, is probably going to back fire from time to time. So- I'm trying to train smart.

Regards Tom